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more mind/self analysis chat with Jay

pashmina: i have a few q's about sociology
I jay michael I: oh yea?
I jay michael I: have you been reading more?
pashmina: no it was something someone said to me
I jay michael I: oh?
pashmina: i couldn't break it down "sociologically"
I jay michael I: hehe
I jay michael I: what was it
pashmina: hard to explain but i'll try.
I jay michael I: ok
pashmina: we talked about the "self"
pashmina: like what it is.
pashmina: she explained... that the self was covered in 5 layers

(Explanation of 5 layers.)

pashmina: it's not exactly layers in the literal sense... just subtle things that we have to get past in order to understand what the "self" actually is
I jay michael I: ahh, i see
pashmina: 5) is most subtle because it is hardest to undersand
pashmina: the mind does some weird things when we are asleep
pashmina: make sense?
I jay michael I: i see, yes
pashmina: so now it's obvious 3, 4 & 5 are completely social
pashmina: and the existence of self and how we recognize it is also very social because of language and etc.
pashmina: so then she asked me
pashmina: what would you call that which understands that language is a social tool but can stil live within the social boundaries?
pashmina: That is the "self" according to her...
pashmina: it is the part of you that understand and realizes
pashmina: but can still live in the social world
I jay michael I: hmm, let me read all of this again
I jay michael I: yea, what you said makes perfect sense
pashmina: i've been trying to figure it out... :) we might understand that language is a social tool, but do we really *know* it. If we could know it and realize it completely would it be possilbe to surpass it? Or are we stuck in it because in just trying to understand it we are using a language (social construct)?
I jay michael I: hmmm... not sure if i follow you there. i mean, if we know that language is a social tool, we can develop our ability to use it as a social tool within the boundries of the language
pashmina: general question is kinda like this:
pashmina: we know that this very existences is a social construct
pashmina: now can we get out of it?
pashmina: is there something outside of it?
pashmina: now this woman believes it is possible

I jay michael I: you are asking some very big questions
pashmina: i met this woman 2 weeks ago in HK
pashmina: Jay I haven't met anyone so powerful
I jay michael I: huh... well...
pashmina: it was weird
pashmina: i'm still a skeptic.. but man.. she's on to something
pashmina: i can't wrap my mind all of it...
pashmina: i wish i could meet up with you, sal and colin
I jay michael I: what you're asking is if we can somehow we circumvent the social construct we are in to realize an almost supernatural state...
pashmina: i guess
pashmina: i still question it
pashmina: but i can't explain it either
pashmina: it's like her intuition is on crack

I jay michael I: well, i mean, we know our existance is socially constucted... and that is how we continue to survive... so in order to escape it, we could not longer exist within our normal socially constructed world... it sounds like solitary thought.
I jay michael I: hehe, i know what you mean
pashmina: it's actually no thought
pashmina: it's the gap between each breath you take
pashmina: but you can exist in the socially constructed world
pashmina: it's like we know this is a program
pashmina: but we are stuck in the program
pashmina: now how do we get out of the program and get back into DOS...?
pashmina: lol
I jay michael I: well, yes. but you have to realize that by escaping this world, you would presumably still have one's "self" in tact... and carry what one has learned into another world... and work with that. but we know from experiment this only last for a short period of time b/c without input from our socially constructed world, we would have no thought. does that make sense?
pashmina: and then we can utilize the program at will... not be stuck in it forever
I jay michael I: ahh, i see
pashmina: if i take my computer and erase everything what remains?
pashmina: i can put in another program (another social construct) and make it entirely chinese
I jay michael I: well, we would have to understand and use the "higher" (or is it "lower") levels of the program or code.... like preforming windows commands using the dos code without using windows... ya know
pashmina: it's lower...
I jay michael I: yea, i think so
pashmina: weird.. lower...

pashmina: i'm glad you at least understand what the hell i'm talking about
I jay michael I: i am still slightly confused but i get the idea
pashmina: yeah... if you come up with any insights let me know

Jay's Response:
(Equally confusing.)

Relativity theory, proven within the realm of physics, can be applied elsewhere in science and even has a place in sociology. One may think of the self relative to the rest of the world, that is what the self perceives of the world, as one’s present reality. One’s reality is never constant except where it is not defined (before its beginning and beyond its end). Therefore one’s reality changes over time. For instance, there is a sharp contrast between the reality which is sleeping and the reality which is awake and undergoing much stimuli. This is well understood. However, what happens when one perceives the world in one way and exists in the world another way (dreaming is a good example, also when drunk, high, etc.)? We can observe our existence as well as live it, but this requires more than just self -- it requires immersion in reality. What is more interesting is when we think of just the self perceiving reality with no sense of whether the self is existing in that same reality (e.g. when sleeping, the mind may perceive the world as reality when the body is in all together different state of existence or reality). Have you ever remembered something but couldn’t remember whether it actually happened or whether it was simply a dream -- a figment of your imagination? One may think of dreams as a memory release of residual feelings, emotions, thoughts or possibilities. Dreams can be thought of as the process by which the body conditions its nervous system... a bodily function we require.

But how can we know that this reality -- the one we perceive as being "real" as being the same as our bodily existence is absolute? The Matrix may be real, or it may be just a movie here to amuse our simple, un-evolved mind/body duality.


Pashmina Lalchandani
this is pashmina